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Her voice alone has always been a marvel: her grade-school performance of Dorothy in The Wiz might reasonably have driven singers three times her age into early retirement. But Jazmine Sullivan is also an exceptional writer, producer, and arranger—a composer of vibrant, fierce meditations on the theater of everyday life. The 28-year-old Philly native recently emerged from her own five-year hiatus with her stunning third album, Reality Show. Nominated for multiple Grammys including Best R&B Album, the work details the embarrassments, affirmations, and ride-or-die commitments of characters who are rarely featured in popular music: positive-thinking criminals ("Silver Lining"), unapologetic gold-diggers ("Mascara"), and women abandoned by the men whose success they enable ("Brand New"). Throughout, Sullivan highlights the music of language as it’s actually spoken and the artfulness of lives as they’re actually lived—the "reality" as well as the "show." In the process, she displays not only passionate realness but also the imaginative brilliance for which black women artists seldom get credit. We discussed her labor-intensive labor of love.
Pitchfork: Can you tell me about your craft as a songwriter? What was your process like for this album?
Jazmine Sullivan: This particular album, I had about 15 tracks at a time sent to me—some from Salaam Remi, some from Trevor [Jerideau]—and there would always be one from the 15 that I would like. So I would just be vibing with whatever I liked the most. And then there were a couple songs that I started on my own. I would have a melody or an idea and I would take it to the studio to go through it. One of them was "Masterpiece." That came very late in the writing process, but when the idea came to me, I just felt like it was important—I just felt like it was something that needed to be said. And with taking that long break, I think it explained me and my journey and what I’ve been dealing with. So I was really excited when that song came to me. And I took it to Anthony Bell—he’s someone I’ve worked with for years—and he helped me to finish it.
Pitchfork: So in most cases it starts with a vibe or a feeling you get from a track you connect with—
JS: The vibe, the music of the track—I want the lyrics to go with that. So with "#Hoodlove," there was a gritty sound, and I wanted my lyrics to fit with that. "Brand New" has a rap sound, and that fits with the story, which is about a rapper and the way that his success affects his relationship. But that song also had a kind of jazzy vibe to it, so that influenced how I sang the first verse.
Pitchfork: There’s that trumpet solo at the beginning and the end that gives it that classic sound.
JS: The trumpet frame was added after. My mom actually helped me with that. She’s a playwright, so her mind is always thinking in terms of scenes and characters.
Pitchfork: I was going to ask if you had anybody you could collaborate with or bounce ideas off while you’re writing.
JS: The person I would trust the most is my mom. She’s just really creative… She’s a playwright and she’s a musician. She was there more than anybody as far as the process went. In fact, she is the reason why "Brand New" is even on the album! I wanted Kendrick Lamar to do the second verse. But it turned out he couldn’t do it, so I was going to leave it off the album and my mom was like, "No, that’s crazy."
Pitchfork: Go, mom! Was it a challenge to regain your confidence after being away for so long?
JS: It was definitely a challenge. My confidence was completely shot. There’s another singer out there that went through the same thing and at the time I was like, "How does she not know how dope she is?" And then later I was like, "Oh, this is why." Because I was experiencing it for myself. It got so bad to where I wouldn’t even accept a show.
Pitchfork: Did you think you had lost your ability?
JS: I don’t know if I thought I lost it but it just didn’t feel natural to me like it did before. It was like, "Oh my God," like I’m taking my first steps, like I’m learning how to walk again. But the love that I got when I finally did start performing again was all that I needed to just get back out there. Just to know that people were out there and they missed me. That made all the difference.
Pitchfork: Did you work so hard on this album because of the pressure of having been away so long or did you just want to do justice to the music?
JS: It was both. After you’ve been away, people’s expectations are like, "Well, you better have something to show for it. Tell us why you’ve been away so long!" The pressure of that fueled me trying to perfect the album. But at the same time, I also was falling in love with the music and the stories, and wanting to honor that. So it was both.
Pitchfork: Now that it’s out, is it people’s response to the album that makes you feel that it is good enough?
JS: Definitely. Hearing that people connect with it. When people understand it, that makes all the difference. Because you’re thinking that if you say this well enough, then people see how you feel, or how the character feels. And that’s how I know I’ve made that connection with the listener.
Pitchfork: Do you see yourself as an actress inhabiting all these different roles, or are they all different aspects of yourself?
JS: Some of them are out of my life. But I think a lot of the way that I try to write my stories come from watching my mom write plays and trying to do that.
Pitchfork: Were any of the characters especially hard to write?
JS: Well, I try not to force it. So when I find myself having that much trouble with a song or a character or a story, I tend to move on… Except for the second verse of "Brand New"—I wasn’t planning on telling it like that.
Pitchfork: Where she’s been drinking and decides to call him?
JS: Yeah, at first I just didn’t like it! I didn’t think it was gonna go down like that.. You know what’s kind of weird is that when I’m writing I don’t know where I’m going to go. As I’m writing it, I’m kind of curious to see what’s going to happen. It almost feels like I’m the writer and I’m the listener, too.
Pitchfork: You recently tweeted that you wanted voice lessons from Lalah Hathaway. What would you want her to teach you?
JS: Probably breathing techniques. It’s so technical. I’m not great with breathing, like holding notes. I usually don’t. A lot of people wouldn’t believe it, but I don’t focus on technical stuff… Technically, Lalah is just great as a singer, on every level, but I would like to learn breathing from her in particular.
Pitchfork: Did you used to focus more on the technical stuff and you just don’t at this point in your career?
JS: No, I never really did! I mean, I did go to a performing arts high school [the Philadelphia High School for the Creative and Performing Arts] where we studied classical music. And I enjoyed singing music together, learning all the parts. I did learn to sight-read. But you know, I was into other things. Boys…
Pitchfork: Right! Is there anyone who has especially influenced your sense of timing?
JS: I think that’s natural, I think the way I write is kind of naturally rhythmic. If there’s anything of my own in my writing, I think that’s my own thing. Like when I start a song, I almost hear the rhythm more than the melody. And when I’m working on it I would want to tweak the melody to fit the rhythm more than the other way around.
Pitchfork: One especially amazing performance on the album is "Forever Don’t Last." How do you hold it together when singing with that much emotion?
JS: It was hard. That song was the hardest to sing, because I was going through it [the breakup]. So I was basically like, "You can either let it overtake you and just not get the song done. Or you can use it and put it in the song and be done with it." It was that process, like, "What you gon’ do? You gon’ break down or get it done?" Thankfully I got it done. If I had stopped singing I might not have started again and would never have finished it.
Pitchfork: Is that the song you’re most proud of?
JS: I feel like my answer to that changes with time, but I think probably right now it would be "Mascara"—I think it flows well and it tells a unique story. The first line ["Yeah, my hair and my ass are fake/ But so what?"]—I feel like a lot of women would want to say that, but they’re afraid to. But that’s what we all want to be. We all want to be that confident person. And it’s hard to be that way. 'Cause you always feel like somebody’s judging you, like somebody’s always watching you. So it’s hard to be that secure in yourself.
Pitchfork: So do the lyrics of "Masterpiece" ["Every part of me is beautiful, and I finally see/ I’m a work of art, a masterpiece"] express how you actually feel or how you want to feel?
JS: I feel like a masterpiece some days and some days I don’t. Some days it’s an expression of me. That song for me is like a hope, like a reminder. And I hope it can be that for the listener, too.
Pitchfork: You have a short documentary that shows people painting a mural of you in your neighborhood in Philly. The mural features those lyrics. What is it like for you to see that?
JS: Oh, it’s amazing. For those kids to be able to see that. For them to be able to look at a kid who grew up in the same neighborhood as them, and who is living her dream. And the words that are there are beautiful. So they can see that it doesn’t matter where they come from or what they look like or whatever. There’s someone who came from where they came from and who looks like they do and she did it…
Pitchfork: And you’ve been nominated for, what, 11 Grammys at this point? What do the nominations for Reality Show mean to you?
JS: That my hard work was not in vain. That as crazy as I was in the studio, it was not in vain… I really did drive myself crazy with this album. But my fans appreciate it, and also the Academy can see how much work I put into it. They can see it and they can hear it.